Let's say there's a, like, a bunch of plastic in the ocean. Can mushrooms fix that?
Speaker 2:Yes. The reason is decomposer fungi are probably gonna be our best bet to break that apart. I found that lead can be removed from soil by plants when they have their mycorrhizal fungal partner. Would it be weird if I shared a dream?
Speaker 1:Yes. And I really want you to now.
Speaker 2:Okay. I'll be a weirdo. Let's get weird. I'll be a weirdo right now.
Speaker 3:Welcome to Astro Odyssey, where we explore the space, a realm where ideas, cultures, and social constructs collide and evolve. We dive into everything and everything from the new norm, the new mainstream, the other, and a new way for the everyday person. And now, guiding us on this journey with curiosity and an open mind, your host, Eric Schwartz, a comedian and seeker of the unknown. Eric is here to learn alongside you, the listeners, asking the big questions, exploring new ideas, and uncovering the mysteries of Astral Odyssey. Get ready to expand your mind with curiosity and insight.
Speaker 1:Mushrooms will save the planet. And no, you don't even have to eat them. Wait. What? I thought mushrooms are just for pizza toppings and tripping.
Speaker 1:Turns out they can also clean up our polluted planet. What? How? Well, that's what our guest, Doctor. Danielle Stevenson, will reveal today.
Speaker 1:She's an environmental toxicologist and applied mycologist, a fungal biologist. She's pioneering the use of mushrooms to clean up toxic soil waste and pollution. And in this episode, we'll discover the untold non psychedelic power of healing mushrooms in our environment and what you can do to help right now. This is a nonpsychedelic mushroom trip that'll blow your mind, bro. What's up?
Speaker 1:I'm Eric Schwartz and I'm here today to learn this stuff with you on Astral Odyssey, your trip into the space. So let's welcome our guest today, doctor Danielle Stevenson. Danielle, how's it going?
Speaker 2:Good. Happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Thank you for being here all the way from Austin, Texas. You know, most people think of mushrooms as something they eat or take as a supplement or as a hallucinogenic magic mushroom. But you're like, hold my beer. Right? Mushrooms can actually save the planet.
Speaker 1:So from a macro to a micro, how does this work?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So well, of all, the mushrooms we eat, like, to trip and on pizza and stuff, and we see growing in the forest are just the fruit, you know, of these fungi that actually live in these massive networks in pretty much all land all around the world. So from like the tundras of the North, even wetlands, definitely forests and grasslands, pretty much all over the world are just, you know, thriving with these fungal networks that, you know, the living fungus is called mycelium. And so these fungi are essential to so many different life cycles. You know, the largest, oldest living thing on earth is not a blue whale.
Speaker 2:It's a fungal network in Oregon. Wow. Yeah. I mean, there's also fungi. Well, like, fun facts.
Speaker 2:How many fungi do you think live on a healthy human foot?
Speaker 1:Oh, man. Well, the way you ask it, I think it's gonna be a lot. But, how many fungi I wanna note that your said it wrong. I said fungi and it's fungi. Or is it interchangeable?
Speaker 2:It's all good. No, this is this funny thing.
Speaker 1:I think
Speaker 2:tomato, tomato, okay. People say fungi, fungi, fungi, good.
Speaker 1:Like GIF and GIF, same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. So on a human foot, how many fungi are there?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna guess, like, 5,000,000.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love it.
Speaker 1:The overshoot?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the answer is 60. But we're on the right track because the main point I well, there's two main points I
Speaker 1:wanna talk mean, it depends how dirty your feet are, right?
Speaker 2:Well, actually, also, the two main things I wanna get across are that there's one, fungi everywhere, and they're really essential to the health of animals, humans, as well as pretty much all ecosystems around the world, from the tundra to the desert to wetlands to forests and grasslands and beyond, you know? But the thing I wanna get across is this concept that's really important when we're trying to understand how we can help the environment, and that is something that you your guests kind of alluded to is like actually health comes from there being diversity. So when there's a lot of different players in a system, it actually leads to resilience. When there's only one player that's taken over, that's when we start to have problems. So an unhealthy human foot has only one fungal species, and that's athlete's foot.
Speaker 2:And so that's not fungi. Because if we had all those 60, you know, good fungi, you know, we'd be fine. It'd be holding the space, it'd be all good. So those are the two main concepts I wanted to get across. There's fungi everywhere.
Speaker 2:And like, like I said, all ecosystems on our feet, and so on, but also in like Chernobyl, like melted down nuclear reactors, also growing on plastic floating in the ocean, also growing in oil spills and, you know, electronic waste and pretty much everywhere. So this can start to, I hope, get people's, minds turned on around how we can start to understand and work with these amazing organisms.
Speaker 1:Because when a lot of people hear fungi, they think it's like mold or something, they feel like it might be something that's harmful, but these are not necessarily or not, for the most part, they're not harmful. They're like good bacteria type of thing or they're not even bacteria? Good What's the difference? I think people like, I'm learning, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:For sure. Yeah. So fungi are actually their whole own kingdom of life. Pretty cool. You know?
Speaker 2:So bacteria have their own kingdom, fungi have their own kingdom, plants have a kingdom, animals have a kingdom, so on. So, yeah, fungi have their own kingdom. They're not bacteria. They're not animals, although we're really closely related. They used to be thought of as plants, actually, plants with invisible, seeds.
Speaker 2:So, but, yeah, they're not they're not any of those things.
Speaker 1:They're not plants and they're not animals. And
Speaker 2:the kingdom is is huge and diverse. And, yeah, there's mold. Mold is in that kingdom. Athlete's foot is in that kingdom, you know, but also all the medicinal mushrooms we eat, all the edible mushrooms we use, you know, culinarily, as well as all these fungi that live in soil that we can't even see and underground, you know, forming the largest organisms in the world. So there's a lot of diversity in this kingdom.
Speaker 1:So what are some of the everyday things that people use that are like deteriorating or the planet that maybe fungi can help reverse?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we build our homes and
Speaker 1:You know what? Before that, let me go back because the question that I asked was, how does this work? Like, how do we, we talked about, you know, we talked about that the fungi are everywhere. Fungi. I keep saying fungi, but fungi, Either either one.
Speaker 1:We keep saying, you know, fungi are everywhere, but then how do you work with them to save the planet?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess I'll go I'll start out really big and then link back to something I already said. So when when I'm working with fungi to save the planet, I really look to nature to figure out how to do that. Right? Because all of this stuff is already happening in nature.
Speaker 2:And if we pay attention, and that's how we can learn. So when I look to nature, I learned that there's different ways, like there's different types of fungi, but they can be broadly categorized into like how they get their food. So I'll give some examples and then link that to how we can work with them for, you know, cleaning up pollution. So one major type of fungi are the decomposer fungi. They're the guys that, you know, break down a dead tree once the tree's died and fallen over.
Speaker 2:They break down leaves once they've fallen, right? So they eat dead stuff. What they're after is the carbon in that dead stuff. And they get their food by releasing enzymes just like we do, you know, in our digestive system to break down our food. They release those enzymes into the environment, into the, you know, log or whatever, fallen leaves.
Speaker 2:And that breaks that, you know, thing down into simpler, essentially sugar, essentially food, the fungus then takes in and eats. As they're doing that, they're turning this, you know, dead tree into ultimately soil. Like, that's what you end up with. Like, we would not have soil if it were not for decomposer fungi.
Speaker 1:There's decomposer fungi, but then, like, let's say there's like a bunch of plastic in the ocean, right? There's a bunch of oil spilled somewhere. Can mushrooms fix that?
Speaker 2:Yes. And the reason is that plastic is made from oil and oil is made from dead stuff that got compressed
Speaker 1:from Fossil fuels.
Speaker 2:Right? So do you see the connection? So basically, decomposer fungi love eating dead stuff. That's how they get their food. And what makes them special and different than bacteria is that they can break down the most complex carbon.
Speaker 2:So like, most bacteria can't break down lignin inside of trees that makes them rigid and hard, but certain decomposer fungi can. And so those same decomposer fungi that can break down, you know, trees can also often be applied to break down everything from any petrochemical type of pollution, but also anything made out of petrochemicals or fossil fuels, from like you know, agricultural pesticides and stuff. I don't know if people know, but, like, we make so much of what we use out of fossil fuels. So plastic is made out of fossil fuels. You know, a lot of stuff in our homes is made out of fossil fuels.
Speaker 2:A lot of, chemicals used in agriculture also made out of fossil fuels. And so these in terms of, like, how can we work with fungi to clean up, you know, pollution, well, if it's a type of pollution that is organic, and what I mean by that isn't like, you know, it hasn't had chemical pesticides and fertilizers applied to it, I mean, it's carbon based, so it's made out of something that was once alive, then decomposer fungi are probably going to be our best bet to break that apart, eat it, and in doing so, break it down, like actually transform it into something safer and less toxic.
Speaker 1:How are we as everyday people, how are we contributing to this? I can think of a few ways with our oil or our pesticides that we use on our lawns or something but how are we contributing to the mess?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I just wanna say I do feel like it's tough as individuals, because we don't have too I don't think that most people feel like they have too much choice, right? Are a lot of people are struggling to get by, and so maybe you want to buy the, like, more expensive, less toxic thing, but then it, you know, doesn't quite work out. So, yeah. So I don't wanna put too much on individuals in terms of, like, what they're able to do. You know, obviously, do as much as you're able to, but where we really can make a difference is when we act together collectively, like the fungi, actually.
Speaker 2:You know?
Speaker 1:We have to be like the fungi.
Speaker 2:So when we work together to change policies, when we work together to, you know, influence things, say no to really destructive environmental practices, you know, advocate for and help bring into reality more regenerative practices, I think that's the best way to go.
Speaker 1:Alright, so how does this work? Let's say there's a spill on the beach. Do you just go scatter some mushrooms and it'll clean up all the oil? How does that happen?
Speaker 2:you have to figure out which fungi will help, so which ones would not only eat the oil or whatever the pollutant is, but will do so in the conditions that you're dealing with, right? So like, a common, misapplication that I've seen is like, with the oil spill into like the ocean, people dropping fungus that does not live in the ocean into the ocean, it can't survive, right? So if you want to work with fungi to clean up pollution, you've got to learn how to essentially cultivate and like help grow a bunch of different types of fungi. Yeah, and on that, and you know, and create the conditions that'll help them grow. So with like the oil spill into the ocean example, what would make more sense would be to scoop up all that oil in the ocean on something like straw, like some like, you know, material that decomposer fungi like to eat anyways, and then on land with more control where you can like, you know, give the fungus what it needs, then inoculate it, which is just the term we use to describe adding the fungi into the mix, And then you gotta keep testing and see what's happening.
Speaker 2:You can't assume that if you just drop some mushrooms into the oil, that it's done its thing. You gotta test and make sure that it's fully been broken down.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's so fascinating. And we're out here in Los Angeles and I know that what's on everyone's mind out here is how are we going to clean up all the toxic debris that is sitting on the ground? I mean, I literally am not going outside to exercise and it's been almost five, six months since the fires. I'm still like, don't care because there's debris on the ground. It could kick up into the air.
Speaker 1:So are you Please tell me you guys are working on something too.
Speaker 2:We are. We are. Yeah. Yeah. So I've actually been working with an organization called Co Renewal for many years, and they have actually developed a bunch of amazing technology to work with fungi to clean up after fires.
Speaker 2:So it actually, those projects started in Northern California, where there were just like catastrophic wildfires, over the past few years. And then, you know, so we've banded together with them to bring some of that, and some of the research I've carried out in LA specifically, to LA to help after the wildfires. And, yeah. So, basically, what it looks like so far is, co renewals come up with these myco waddles. That just means you've got fungi in the in in these waddles.
Speaker 2:So waddles are huge.
Speaker 1:Say that again because that's a hilarious, cute term. Micro waddles?
Speaker 2:Micro.
Speaker 1:Micro. Micro waddles.
Speaker 2:It's referring to fungi. And then waddle is just these straw stuffed sausages.
Speaker 1:Straw sausages? Are you guys naming dog treats or mushrooms?
Speaker 2:No. You've seen them. I'm sure you've seen them.
Speaker 1:They're such cute names.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They're green or they're or they're, like, made out of burlap, and there's the they're you'll see them, like, lining highways and stuff, but you've definitely seen them since the fires.
Speaker 1:I mean, the only picture I have in my head is, like, an anime Mario Brothers mushroom. Like, is that's not what they look like?
Speaker 2:No. No. It looks like it looks like a big tube on a hill, you know? And so people they're they're already used, not with the fungi, but the just the straw stuffed, like, sat tubes have already are already used a lot to prevent runoff of, like, toxic stuff into the water.
Speaker 1:Really? And
Speaker 2:then this innovation is adding fungi that'll actually help break down and stabilize some of that toxic ash and stuff. So that's CoRenewals technology that they've developed, and we're, working with them to, add in the stuff I've developed around the soil cleanup specifically. So then we're covering these multiple bases. Right? We're dealing what we're trying to prevent, like toxic runoff all over the place, and then also trying to clean up the soil in place.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I think people I mean, I hear you, it's like, it's really sad and scary just, you know, when houses burn, when cars burn, there is so much toxic stuff that gets released into the air, into the water and into the soil. And a lot of that stuff just will not go away on its own. Like we have to do something to clean it up. And the problem is, right, there just aren't as many resources being offered anymore for remediation, for cleanup and testing. And in the place, the most common cleanup method for hazardous waste, for any type of waste and for contaminated soil is to literally just move it somewhere else and dump it there.
Speaker 2:Right? It doesn't actually clean up the problem. It just moves it somewhere else.
Speaker 1:So I was wondered about that. So now the landfill, the people who live near the landfill are getting the toxic debris.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:I've even gone as far as to look at where the wind is blowing and I just get out of the path of the wind. For the day I'll try to get. I'm glad you're doing this work with fungi because hopefully it speeds up the process. It seems like so magical but there's people out there that like we talked about the consumer, everyday person. We have busy lives and we don't want to put the pressure on the everyday consumer to like clean up but what are some ways that everyday people can help in this fight to clean up the planet with fungi?
Speaker 1:Yeah,
Speaker 2:I mean, one thing is if you have a project in mind, call me up. Okay. Yeah, we work on a lot of projects around this kind of stuff. So we've been getting a lot of folks who have lost homes, and are dealing with you know, toxic land reaching out, feel free to do that. Yeah, that's a great way to support, because then it supports this kind of like new economy of regeneration.
Speaker 2:It makes this like a viable option, right? So that's one thing people can do. Another thing is, yeah, like I said, just get involved, whatever it is that, whatever angle, right? There's so many cool things that fungi can do, whether like, you know, be part of creating more sustainable materials to, you know, this remediation stuff, cleaning up pollution, to food, medicine, whatever it is that connects for you with fungi, get involved with that. Because they're still so not included in most systems, right?
Speaker 1:So you do this like as a private service for people, right? But then are you also talking to governments because, know, for example, in LA, I think that they should be totally working with some people like you to help with the And it sounds like they are. So are you you know, there's so many places that need to be cleaned up right now.
Speaker 2:There's so many. There already were, to be honest. There already were. And it's not like LA is unique in that. It's just there's already so much pollution everywhere.
Speaker 2:And then when there's natural disasters like floods, fires, whatever it may be, it creates more, and it spreads it even more. So it goes from being already a pretty bad problem to just a big crisis.
Speaker 1:We work faster somehow? How do we get more of this out there? Because seems like once you get the fungi there, they probably do their job, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I've seen it just, yeah, it tends to work really well for sure. And it's like, but the hurdles that I've run into in trying to do this work, one of them is regulatory, so policy. So like, on one hand, sometimes entire cities will call me and be like, we have a huge problem, our whole city is contaminated, we don't have funds, and it's not gonna be doable to, like, just dig up all that soil and, like, the entire city and just dump it somewhere else. So, like, can you help?
Speaker 2:So, like, I do think it's recognized as a problem and that there's this need for other approaches that are cheaper and more sustainable and can be done in place, you don't have remove all that soil, but still when I, you know, someone who's been working on this for like fifteen or more years, it's nearly impossible to implement projects because there's so many regulatory barriers to doing a new to testing out a new approach. So that's something like advocate, you know, call it like pressure, Like
Speaker 1:red tape, a lot
Speaker 2:of red tape, it sounds like. Regulatory agencies and be like, hey, please support bioremediation and micro remediation. It's so needed. And then the other thing is funding. Like just there, it's just so, like we, yeah, there's just so little funding for this type of stuff.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I've run actually a nonprofit research organization for all of this called the Center for Applied Ecological Remediation. It's all about carrying out this research, and we have literally no funding. It's not
Speaker 1:just I will change this.
Speaker 2:Right, so that's what I'm saying. I'm like, please help people, spread the word, be like, hey, send some funding over there and try to make this happen. Because the other thing we're doing is we're also providing workforce development and education for people. So this is a pretty cool job, and you can't get trained in this stuff anywhere. We're offering that too.
Speaker 2:We're trying to build this whole new way of doing things that includes fungi.
Speaker 1:It seems like everyone wins with this kind of thing, right? It's totally natural. But is there opposition to it? Are there people that are like, No, we don't want this kind of fungi remediation cleanup to happen?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Who are those people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's wild. I mean, I can talk about it now a bit, but again, in doing this work, I've had my, like, samples destroyed, not once, like, again and again. I've had, like, my physical, like, the sites where I'm doing this work, physically sabotaged.
Speaker 1:Why you want that though?
Speaker 2:So I don't know if folks have seen it's, common side effects. It's a an animated show about it's actually more about this, like, magic mushroom that has healing powers. But in the show, the protagonist is, like, literally being I don't think this gives anything away anyways, is being pursued by, like, big companies, who are trying to shut down him, his work and his research, and stop him from sharing this with the world, even though it's such a good thing that could help so many so many people. So I feel like I really resonated with the protagonist when I saw that show because I feel like I've experienced that too. So it's like whenever you're doing something that's different than the status quo, it's gonna challenge people who are very invested in the status quo continuing.
Speaker 2:Right? So even though it's, like, such a like you said, like, kind of a win win, you know, such a positive thing for people, for the environment, it's it's disruptive to to how things are. And so yeah. I mean, I guess that's how you know you're onto something, though. It's, like
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's people isn't there what's that saying? Like, they laugh at you, then they fight you, then they join you, and then you win. So like, I feel like we're maybe in the fighting. I was laughed at when I started. You know, people were like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:This is like, so weird. It's like, I don't get, you know, and then now people are fighting me. And so I get we're we're on we're on the way, you know, the next step is joining And then and then we we all win. We really will all win.
Speaker 1:It makes no sense to me. I mean, I'm just very, very new to this to this topic, but it makes no sense to me that why would anyone wanna stop that, even people who pollute. Right? Because then they get a better rap. If you can clean them up, they can continue doing their quote, unquote dirty work.
Speaker 1:Right? You're cleaning up for, like, all these polluters. They it seem it seem like it seem like the polluters would wanna fund I appreciate
Speaker 2:I appreciate you right now because I think this all the time. I'm like, y'all, like, I'm out here in a full hazmat suit, like, spending my days, like, cleaning up pollution, and then to get so much flack for it is so weird to me. I'm like, you guys, like, I could be chilling on a beach or something. Like, I could really be doing something else. This is hard work.
Speaker 1:You could be chilling on a beach that you clean up. Right? You get your stretch that's clean.
Speaker 2:But I'm like really showing up to like try to help out to share this stuff and yeah, I agree with you.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm a polluter, I would want, as a PR move, I would want to hire somebody like you. Know? You know Yeah.
Speaker 2:As PR, but also like these methods are so much cheaper than dig and dump. So even if it was pure self in like, bottom line type stuff, it's like That's what
Speaker 1:I would say, like, corporations you're not gonna stop corporations from being greedy. So you might as well go with that, but also find, like, good ways
Speaker 3:to
Speaker 1:be greedy. Like use your greed for good rather than evil. And that's a way that they can be greedy and is to hire you. Keep your greed going and work for the common good. Know, so I would imagine like once you started working with these like magical fungi and these mushrooms, I don't even know the limit of what they can do.
Speaker 1:You you keep hearing all these cool things they can do. They can communicate with each other. They can heal. They can decompose things. They can rebuild.
Speaker 1:How has working with fungi changed your mindset on the world?
Speaker 2:I love that question. So working with fungi has changed the way I see the world a lot. Honestly, I think I already saw everything as very connected. I don't know really why, but I just always have seen everything as very connected. You know, I've always like had very vivid dream life and, you know, been involved in journey work and all this stuff.
Speaker 2:So I kind of like, had this feeling and some of it was yeah, through dreams and stuff, just that like everything was connected. And then when I worked with started working with fungi, was just the proof, know, I was like, cool, here's the receipts, like this, everything definitely is connected in really complex and mysterious and beautiful ways. Way, way, and there's so much more going on than we can see with our eyes, right? You kind of have to I love how working with fungi kind of forces you to tune in with all sorts of other senses and tune in to the unknown and like this great mystery mysterious kind of web of life, and more you know, and even non living stuff too. So, yeah, I think but, you know, it's funny because I'd say, in addition, that working with fungi helped me face things that are really hard to face.
Speaker 2:And I'm talking about working with fungi like in the environment. But it's interesting because for me, I think that my experience has been really similar to what a lot of people share when they, you know, they trip, when they take like psilocybin mushrooms, and then, you know, are able to overcome a fear of death or face, you know, the shadow or face. So I actually feel like working with fungi for environmental cleanup has had a similar effect on me where it's been like it's helped me be unafraid to face toxicity, to face, you know, greed, to face like all these things that we don't like to look at. It's so much. It feels easier, I think, to deny these things and like, want to turn away from them.
Speaker 2:But working with fungi has really helped me be like, no, we really need to be able to, like, face this stuff, because if we keep denying it and trying to run from it, it's gonna destroy us, you know? It's so much better to just face it and kind of work with it, and then we can actually kind of do integrate in a sense, integrate it and and do something with it.
Speaker 1:That's a really interesting way to look at it. Like, the greed and the and the pollution is not gonna go anywhere. We have to accept that it's always gonna be there. And what can we do to ensure our survival within it? Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right? Okay, cool. You took me on a trip and I didn't even take anything. Let's do a little role playing thing. What if fungi ran the world?
Speaker 1:How do you think fungi would run things? How would the fungi grow the food and deal with the pollution and take care of the earth? Do you think is the fungi way?
Speaker 2:Think the fungi already run the world, to be totally honest, and we're just
Speaker 1:I mean, if they're on our feet, they're running
Speaker 2:us, you We're yeah, we're late to acknowledging that. Okay. Like, and not all cultures, there's so many cultures, like ancient cultures that fully, like, are integrated with fungi, they're like, oh yeah, we know, they're just, they run the world, you know, they're our ancestors, we, you know, but, so yeah, I think they already run the world, and, and, and we're just kind of catching up in the, especially in North America, kind of Western world, Western society to acknowledging that and then being able to then, again, when we're acknowledging it, we see it, like work with them more actively in beneficial ways.
Speaker 1:So you just said something that just made me realize, like, might not we might be descended from primates, from other primates, but we might also be mixed with mushroom.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We share common interests. Think it's like Yeah. 300 don't quote me on this, but something like 300 or 600,000,000 years ago, there was that's when kind of we diverged, like, fungi. But, yeah, we we go way back.
Speaker 2:We have a lot in common, a lot more than maybe we'd we'd think. And yeah, and they're already, like, essential to it would take a long time to list, like all the ways in which fungi are running the world already and you know, providing medicine, food, regulating our climate, you know, being essential to like, not only the carbon cycle, but a whole bunch of other nutrient cycles, know, helping clouds form and being part of the water cycle, you know, make soil so that we can like grow food, helping break down pollutants, helping plants grow, like 95% of plants on earth form, relationships with this type of beneficial fungus that lives underground and forming that wood wide web people talk about, sharing information, protecting plant, you know, it just goes on and on. Like, they're they're definitely running the world and and and it makes sense to, I think, for us to just kinda like show up more to that to that relationship.
Speaker 1:So then if fungi run the world, we just have to show up to the relationship. Like you said, if fungi run the world, then do they have a message for us? Like, Should we be following their playbook a little bit better?
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely. Would it be weird if I shared a dream?
Speaker 1:Yes, and I really want you to now.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'll be a weirdo. Let's get weirdo. I'll be a weirdo right now. So I had this dream that I was like this mad scientist in space though. Was cool.
Speaker 2:I was like on this like space station and I had my little lab and what I was learning how to do, so nerdy, but I was developing this method of inoculating anything. So again, inoculating, just like getting the fungi into anything, any type of material.
Speaker 1:Inoculating things with fungi.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I used lasers to do it, of course, in my space station lab.
Speaker 1:Was this during the vaccination? Is that when you had this dream? No? Okay. Was like
Speaker 2:a really long time ago.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But basically, where I'm going with it, I had this mad scientist moment one night, everyone's sleeping on the station, I go out, put my self in front of these lasers, and, inoculate myself with fungi. So the reason I brought this up as a way of answering is because the rest of the dream, my consciousness was completely altered. I was no longer a human with all the like, same, you know, senses and ways of thinking about things. I was now a fungus, and I can tell you that the thing I did was get into a little like space pod thing and go and explore other planets. And when I landed on other planets, the way that I the the way what I was driven to do was to connect with all the different, like every possible organism or like, thing that I could connect with, and figure out how we were going to relate.
Speaker 2:And so I bring that up because if you ask like, yeah, what are fungi trying to tell us? There's so many different types of fungi and they're all, they all live in really different ways, right? Some of them are parasites. And I think if you ask the parasite, they're trying to tell us, it would be different than if you ask like a mycorrhizal fungus that lives in beneficial relationships with plants. But what I will say is that I think fungi are trying to tell us to show up to the relationships, to and not just human relationships, but to all the relationships in this web of life that we're beautifully part of and enmeshed with, and, you know, figure out, like, how we're gonna relate.
Speaker 2:Like, what is this relationship? Are we Is it one where we're just going to take and take and take for ourselves? Or are we offering something to the relationship, like the mycorrhizae? It sounds And arguably yeah.
Speaker 1:I was going to say, it sounds like the more you learn about the fungi or the different functions that the different ones have, then you're gonna learn about them. You're gonna reflect on, like, oh, yeah. That's how I can show up to that relationship.
Speaker 2:Totally. And that's how I can show up in the world. So but I think in general, if I had to pick one message that I think the fungi are trying to tell us, beyond just like that question of like how do you want to show up and relate in the world would be something about balance, like so because whether it's a mycorrhizal fungus, a decomposer, or a parasitic fungus, they're all doing something to treat balance in the larger system, in a way that is so impossible to nail down as like an individual. And I think that's that piece of like, we are inextricably bound to these webs of relationships that support our lives. And, there seems to be some type of balance that is found, and fungi often play some kind of balancing role, right?
Speaker 2:Whether it's like the ones people are scared of now because of The Last of Us, but like cordyceps that take over in nature, it's actually insects. They take over their brains and turn them into kinda zombies and make them act funny, and then they fruit a little mushroom out of their brain.
Speaker 1:Cordyceps do that? Yeah, yeah. I take cordyceps.
Speaker 2:Totally, they're an amazing medicine. But like, I take them too. But yeah, in nature, they're parasites. They're parasitic fungi and their role is to balance populations so that no one type of insect will take over and dominate. Because remember, when there's only one, that is actually not good for the whole system.
Speaker 2:That leads to a lack of resilience,
Speaker 1:right? So you're saying in another form, cordyceps can do that to insects? They're not gonna harm humans. Their forms. So we're eating the fruit of the cordyceps?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. That sounds like a weird thing. These fungi are so powerful in so many different functions.
Speaker 1:What's, like, the weirdest thing you've ever seen a fungi do?
Speaker 2:Oh, so many so many things. I mean, I've seen they're just so adaptable. I've seen like, do you know the lion's mane?
Speaker 1:Yeah. I take that one too. Please don't tell me I'm gonna grow a nipple.
Speaker 2:No. Nothing. No. But, like, I you know, I've grown this one before, and it is just, like, gregarious, I would say, and sexy. It's a gregarious mushroom?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. So I've seen that
Speaker 1:like The life of the party.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Do you know what a petri dish is? You know, that's where you often will start. You'll have a little culture. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I had a lion's mane culture growing on a petri dish. I had actually used that to inoculate other stuff. And so I basically took in a knife and scraped up this plate. So it's just destroy you know, took the culture out, threw them in a ziplock bag. I was gonna clean them out, you know, and reuse them or something, but I was lazy and a bunch of time passed.
Speaker 2:And when I went back to finally clean it out, the little, like, thread of lion's mane mycelium that was still left had grown out of these plastic petri dishes all the way down through the plastic ziplock bag and fruited little lion's mane mushrooms outside of the bag with, like Yo. No resources, you know. Why are
Speaker 1:these things $80 a pound then? If they grow that fast. I went to my farmer's market. This stuff is so expensive, but they grow really fast. I'm gonna go I'm gonna go to the farmer's market.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna say
Speaker 2:It's a bunch of work to to farm to farm mushrooms for sure.
Speaker 1:Mushrooms. Okay.
Speaker 2:I just mean, like, they're they're so resilient and adaptable. It is nuts. And yeah. That's
Speaker 1:I was about to go to my farmer's market and say, hey. These mushrooms are too gregarious for you to charge this price.
Speaker 2:No. I think I don't think mushroom farmers are actually making too much money, to be honest, because it ends up and, you know yeah. But, yeah, they're they're they're gregarious. They're wild. There's other things.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think of what I've seen enough. I mean, I've seen a bunch of stuff in my own research. Like, this is, like, maybe very detailed, but, do you know the the metal lead?
Speaker 1:You're worried about it. Yes.
Speaker 2:Right? It's stressful. It's like a neurotoxin.
Speaker 1:Oh, lead is bad for you.
Speaker 2:Really bad. It's so bad for you. And it's everywhere after the fires, but also just in general. You heard of Flint, Michigan and the water. Right?
Speaker 2:So lead, very bad.
Speaker 1:Lead, bad. Pain. Bad. Lead pain.
Speaker 2:But but yeah. But in terms of, cleaning it, cleaning it up, cleaning getting it out of soil and stuff, it was it was said that, lead couldn't be removed from soil with plants, which is a huge bummer because everywhere plants or phytoremediation so much cheaper, blah, blah, blah, it can be done in place, you clean this lead out of the soil. But in my studies, I found that lead can be removed from soil by plants when they have their mycorrhizal fungal partner. And so the reason that's cool and trippy is that again, it was like, it just reveals that we've overlooked. Like, we thought something was impossible and it's not impossible.
Speaker 2:It's just that fungi were not in the picture, you know? When fungi are in the picture, things kind of, you know, magic happens, basically.
Speaker 1:So for every problem, there's a microriser. Every problem, there's a micawaddle and a snosage.
Speaker 2:Probably, and we just don't even know. We just hardly know. We don't even know, like, something like five of the fungi that exist in the world. We know so much less than that about, you know, some of their roles in the environment and applications is even like a fraction of that. So yeah, so much more to find out.
Speaker 2:I hope more people get involved.
Speaker 1:You've opened my mind to a whole new world and I've never taken psychedelic mushrooms. Sounds like and I just want, just out of curiosity, and I'm sure a lot of people were thinking this when they were hearing your space story, how much do you trip?
Speaker 2:I have hardly ever tripped in my life. Okay. So, no, like you, like, and so, it's just funny, and it's, like, I'm really sensitive. Like, I'm already, you know, having dreams like that. And, you know, like, if I just hold, I think it's partially because I work with fungi.
Speaker 2:Like if I like, I work with them so much that it's like, I for real, like if I touch a, like a psilocybin mushroom, I will probably be like, woah. Really? So, I just, I'm
Speaker 1:That's crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't do them that much because I already kind of, not that
Speaker 1:you
Speaker 2:Like when
Speaker 1:you hang out with them.
Speaker 2:Or something, but like, yeah, I'm hanging with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You're learning their lessons by observation.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And they'll tell me stuff too. Like, they'll just that was like a super trippy dream, but I've also had dreams where, you know, I'll just like turkey whatever. Like, a certain mushroom like, say, I'm working on a certain pollutant cleanup, and then I'll have a dream, and it's like, this mushroom is like, hey, I can actually clean that up. And then I do it, and it works.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean? It's like
Speaker 1:I have an interesting question that I just thought of. Mhmm. Okay. Like, what's like an everyday practical use that you could be like, oh, I have this mushroom. I could solve this problem with this mushroom.
Speaker 1:Like, let's say, I have a polluted glass of water. Could I like sprinkle a little in there and it's clear it's it's pure again? Or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What I would definitely recommend, like, if folks wanna just play around with some of this stuff is, well, one, please be safe, don't mess with toxic stuff without protective gear and all that, but a really good mushroom to start with is the oyster mushroom. It's super easy to grow and it's really not a picky eater. So you can start growing it on just some of your household waste, and it'll be a good way of learning how that particular mushroom works. It turns out that same, the oyster mushroom, I'm talking about, to be clear and technical, the mycelium, like the living part, is what does the remediation.
Speaker 1:Well, how do you do that? Like, where do you get it? And what do you do with it? And what will it do for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You can get you can get spawn from that's what the culture is called, or, like, grow kits from I mean, you can order it literally on, like, Amazon, but you could get it from, like, North Spore or other like, fire west fungi in California. There's also local growers in LA. Wherever people live, you sometimes can get spent blocks, from mushroom farms. Like, you can ask at the farmer's market if you can get some spent blocks for some oyster mushroom.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, check out my old blog, DIY Fungi, has some handouts on how to grow oyster mushrooms on spent coffee grounds and other household waste. So that's a good way to get started. And then and then if you extend from there, I also have handouts on my website about like, okay, I you got a leaky car that leaks oil, how to like break that down with with oyster mushrooms, how to break down like pet waste and a whole bunch of other stuff. Yeah, but that's a good way for people to get started. Start with nontoxic hazard, like non toxic waste.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Coffee grounds, cardboard, stuff like that from your house, and then go from there. That's what I'd recommend.
Speaker 1:So why would you do that though? Like why do you need to break down your coffee grounds if you could just throw those? Those aren't really toxic, you can just throw those and they'll eventually decompose.
Speaker 2:Oh, totally, sorry. That was just, you can actually grow mushrooms. Can
Speaker 1:grow mushrooms
Speaker 2:that way to eat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
Speaker 1:use your non toxic waste as fuel to basically fuel your body and Exactly.
Speaker 2:The reason I bring it up is because it's also a way to get started. You'll learn how to grow oyster mushrooms and then once you have that down on non toxic waste, then you can start to apply that to more more toxic waste.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You see what I'm saying? The same mushroom, some of the same processes, but then start non toxic, grow yourself some food. And then if you get smoked on it and you get the hang of it, you can transition into like, yeah, like
Speaker 1:Like cleaning up your soil in your backyard or something.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh, cool. Oh, that's awesome. I love what you do and I've never heard of it before. So when Desiree told me about you, I was like, we need to talk to her because the fires had just happened.
Speaker 1:I'm still freaking out about the toxicity that's out here in Los Angeles. And like we are so grateful that you do your work. So my takeaway from today is like, you know, learn from mushrooms. Mushrooms are seem to be like a blueprint for a lot of things. They're a book.
Speaker 1:You can learn a lot from these mushrooms which are just right beneath our feet literally. Think also what I've learned is that no matter how bad things seem, the whole city just burned down. These mushrooms and this cleanup gives me hope for renewal, Really there's a lot that you can learn from mushrooms. It's weird that you can learn from this thing that you can't talk to and you can't read it but you can just observe it. I don't know, think I'm about to go on some kind of a non psychedelic mushroom trip.
Speaker 1:So thank you for opening my mind to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my pleasure. I'm so glad you're feeling the hope. I feel that too. Fungi have survived multiple like, apocalyptic events on Earth, you know? They're so adaptable that they're good at figuring out how to survive really tough conditions.
Speaker 2:And so because of that and everything that's happening in the world and that we're all dealing with, it just makes so much sense to me to try to, like, be be on their side, kinda like work with them. And I have seen amazing things, like I've seen in LA, you know, like incredibly industrially polluted, like super toxic sites go from just like devastated and toxic to, you know, regenerated, you know, healthier in pretty short periods of time when we get the fungi involved. So yeah, it gives me a lot of hope too, and I'm glad that that came through for you as well.
Speaker 1:Totally. Well, if people want to learn more about you, we're gonna put all your links in the show notes. So we thank you so much for for sharing all this information and opening people's minds to the magical world of fungi.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thanks for having me on to share.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 3:Astro Odyssey is created and produced by brother and sister, Teo and Desiree Castro. Written by Desiree Castro, this episode was also produced by EnVoiceMedia. Please subscribe and leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Find us on Instagram and YouTube at Astral Odyssey LA. If you would like to be a guest on our show or you are interested in a particular topic, please email us at AstralOdyssey.media@Gmail.com.
Speaker 3:Find and follow your host, comedian Eric Schwartz, on all the socials. Also, follow Evoice Media on Instagram. And get your copy today, Trichome Star of Fractals of Time, available at Barnes and Noble and Amazon. Thank you again. We'll see you next time on Astral Odyssey.